These comments are direct quotations from the Hansard
documents.
Deliberate Withholding of Information
Right Hon. Joe Clark
(Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, two years ago the Department of
Justice told the justice committee that it had spent $327 million on the
firearms registry. That same year the same department told the government
the registry would cost $1 billion by fiscal year 2004-05. The government
did not tell Parliament, a $700 million secret.
My question is to the Prime Minister, what minister in his government
authorized the deliberate withholding of this information from Parliament?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of
Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, it is a question of accountability. Based
on the charter of the program the justice department is accountable, not
just for the justice department, but all other departments as well. We
will ensure to do an audit, which has been demanded last November. We will
be able to come forward with our books in a format that the Auditor
General would like to have.
As I said, could we do better? Yes, we can do better, but we must also
look at the benefit to society. When we look at the stats they actually
show the benefits to society. We have a more secure society and we will
keep going--
The Speaker: The right hon. member for Calgary Centre.
Right Hon. Joe Clark (Calgary Centre, PC): Mr. Speaker, the
minister cannot get away with saying I am sorry. He broke the law of
Parliament and so did his Prime Minister. They knew about a $700 million
overspending. They had an obligation, as he said, to tell the House of
Commons. They zipped their lips and did not tell the House of Commons the
truth.
My question is to the smiling Prime Minister, who in his government
authorized this breaking of the law of Parliament? Was it the Prime
Minister himself?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of
Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, this is the first time that we were
proceeding with such a program with regard to firearms. It has been a
complex program. We started the infrastructure from scratch and we have
been facing cost escalations.
For example, we went through a consultation process. We had to adjust the
program based on the consultation. Some provinces opted out as well. We
have been facing another challenge in terms of technology, but having said
that, we are starting to see the benefits of the program. At this moment
we are firmly committed--
The Speaker: The hon. member for St. Albert.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker,
when the gun registry was introduced Canadians were told that its net cost
would be $2 million, and that is million, not billion. Now the net cost of
the registry is $1 billion and rising.
The Auditor General said today that the government has done everything in
its power to hide the cost of the gun registry and its effectiveness, or
lack thereof, from Canadian taxpayers while murders by firearms in Toronto
continue unabated.
My question for the minister is, how can he justify spending on paperwork
$1 billion which the Auditor General says should have gone to police
forces to ensure--
The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice.
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of
Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, if we read the report of the Auditor
General it seems clear to me that there is no wrongdoing at all. We have
been facing what we call cost escalations and, as I said, it is because of
the consultation process. As well, some provinces have opted out, and we
have been facing a challenge in terms of technology.
If we look at the stats, for example, we will see that police agencies are
accessing the firearms online registry 1,500 times daily. More than 7,000
firearms licences have been refused or revoked since the law came into
effect. The--
The Speaker: The hon. member for St. Albert.
Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Speaker, he
is just quite wrong. The Auditor General says the government spends so
much money on bureaucracy for the gun registry that it does not have the
money to stop trafficking in firearms and no money to train police,
customs or wildlife officers.
The RCMP has also admitted that its databases for gun crimes are
inaccurate and obsolete. The justice minister is clearly more interested
in pushing paper than in fighting crime and ensuring the safety of
Canadians.
Why does the government insist on sacrificing the safety of Canadians on
the altar of a bureaucratic, unworkable gun registry?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of
Canada, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, the RCMP is aware of the concern about the
databases. It has been acting on that. It has been very proactive. Of
course we have to understand that the quality of the databases is directly
linked to the question of technology. I am told that it has improved the
system and it will keep doing that.
Look at what the registration system means. It means fewer firearms on the
black market from break-ins. It reduces the unauthorized use of guns. It
reduces heat of the moment use of firearms. It also reduces accidents,
particularly involving children. These are not my words. These are the
words of David Griffin, who represents 28,000--
Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Mr. Speaker, only 30% of the $1
billion cost of the gun registry has come from the government's main
estimates which are approved by Parliament. Seventy per cent of the cost
overruns come from the supplementary estimates. Under the government's own
rules the supplementary estimates are only to be used for unknown and
unexpected expenses.
Why did the government deliberately hide the cost of the gun registry from
Canadians?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as I
have said many times, we have reported through the main estimates the
costs of the gun registry. As I said, it was not reported in a format to
the satisfaction of the Auditor General.
As I said many times as well and as I would like to repeat, in the future
we will make sure to report in a format that is accepted by the Auditor
General, meaning that we have to report for all the other ministries
involved in the delivery of the programs.
It does not mean that those numbers were not reported. Those numbers were
reported for Justice Canada through the main estimates or the
supplementary estimates of the other departments.
Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, PC): Mr.
Speaker, the Auditor General confirms that the firearms registry database
is not only off the rails financially but that it is also inaccurate and
untrustworthy. The RCMP made this known in 2001. There are also 900 other
police agencies using this database and the Auditor General cannot even
examine them.
Clearly, there is no accountability and no ability to do accounting.
When will the Liberal government end this farcical, face saving exercise
and cancel the billion dollar bureaucratic blunderbuss?
Hon. Martin Cauchon (Minister of Justice, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, we
all know that the costs related to the program have started to go down.
With regard to the database, the RCMP is fully aware of the situation. It
has been very proactive. Of course when we are talking about the quality
of the database we are talking as well about the numbers.
Let me say exactly what we are talking about. It is to increase safety in
our society and to have safer communities. We have started to see the
benefits from this. For example, if we compared the homicide rate using
firearms in the United States and in Canada, it is six to nine times
higher in the United States.
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