These comments are direct quotations from the Hansard
documents.
Ask for Free Vote
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville,
CPC): Mr. Speaker, on December 5, 2002 the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough
moved a motion in the House that cut $72 million from the supplementary
estimates, $72 million that were designated for the firearms program. The
House agreed and voted on the reduction and get this: the government did
not consider this reduction in the estimates a matter of confidence.
Will the Prime Minister explain why he will not let his MPs have a free
vote on future reductions to the firearms program?
Hon. Jacques Saada (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
and Minister responsible for Democratic Reform, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as
far as the firearms registry is concerned, there are two possible
questions: one, the fundamental issue of its existence, and two, the way
it is administered and what improvements could be made to it.
I have no problems whatsoever with improvements to the program. But let it
be properly understood: the program is in place, and it is there to stay.
The firearms registry must continue to exist.
How can they be calling for a free vote when they have absolutely no
interest in applying the same principle within their own caucus?
Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton—Melville, CPC): Mr. Speaker, I
think something was lost in the translation because my question was on
whether it should be a free vote or not.
The Firearms Act has already cost taxpayers $1 billion. Taxpayers want to
know when it will become $2 billion. A succession of ministers in charge
of this have kept Parliament in the dark since December 2002.
Why will the Minister of Public Safety not stop this cover-up today? Just
tell us, how much is the gun registry going to fully cost to implement and
how much will it cost to maintain? It is a simple question. How about an
answer?
Hon. Anne McLellan (Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety
and Emergency Preparedness, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member
knows, in spite of all the conspiracy theories and the paranoia that comes
from him, there is no cover-up here. In fact, on this side of the House we
have been absolutely clear year after year in terms of what the firearms
program cost.
We should not lose sight of the fact that Canadians are committed to gun
control. Canadians are committed to a function of safety in relation to
firearms.
The Speaker: I am now prepared to rule on the question of privilege
raised by the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville on February 3 concerning
information contained in the Department of Justice performance report for
the year ending March 31, 2003. I would like to thank the hon. member for
drawing this matter to the attention of the Chair. I would also like to
thank the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader for
his intervention.
In his presentation, the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville stated that
information regarding expenditures by the Department of Foreign Affairs
and International Trade that was provided in the government response to
Question No. 194 of the second session contradicted information found in
the Department of Justice performance report for 2002-03. The hon. member
added that, in his opinion, a statement in the report that professed to
represent the views of the Auditor General did not correspond to the
opinions expressed in the Auditor General's report itself. The hon. member
made reference to other information contained in the performance report
that he believed to be erroneous, a list of which he provided to the
Chair. He concluded that the Minister of Justice, in tabling the report,
had misled the House and was therefore guilty of contempt.
In his response to the matter, the parliamentary secretary to the
government House leader stated that there was no provision in the rules
that required the Speaker to review government responses to questions. He
added that in similar cases in the past, Speakers had consistently ruled
that it was not the role of the Chair to determine whether or not the
contents of documents tabled in the House were accurate. Nor was the
Speaker required to assess the likelihood of an hon. member knowing
whether or not the facts contained in a document were correct.
With regard to the accusation of contempt, the parliamentary secretary
stated that there is considerable onus on a member who alleges a contempt
to establish that the accused member knowingly included false information
in a report and did so with an intention to mislead the House.
The need to provide the House and all its members with accurate
information is very important. Hon. members have frequently pointed to the
difficulties caused when confusing or inaccurate information is tabled in
the House. The Chair agrees that all hon. members should strive to be
accurate in the information they present.
The hon. member for Yorkton--Melville provided the Chair with detailed
material outlining specific instances where he disputed the accuracy of
the information presented in the performance report, and I have reviewed
the material with interest. However, I must remind the hon. member that
the Speaker has no role in settling disputes as to fact.
House of Commons Procedure and Practice states on page 443:
There are no provisions in the rules for the Speaker to review government
responses to questions... The Speaker has ruled [on a number of occasions]
that it is not the role of the Chair to determine whether or not the
contents of documents tabled in the House are accurate nor to “assess
the likelihood of an Hon. Member knowing whether the facts contained in a
document are correct”.
Previous Speakers have consistently ruled that it is not the role of the
Chair to judge the quality of information. For example, in her ruling
recorded in the Debates on February 28, 1983 at page 23278, Madam Speaker
Sauvé said in a situation similar to this one:
The essence of [the] submission was...that the documents tabled in the
House contained errors of fact...Clearly, the Chair cannot make such a
determination even on a prima facie basis. It is not the function of the
Chair, furthermore, to determine whether or not the contents of documents
tabled in the House are accurate. Neither is it the function of the Chair
to assess the likelihood of an Hon. Member knowing or not knowing whether
the facts contained in a document are correct.
I can see no grounds for departing from this practice in the present case.
With regard to charges of contempt, providing incomplete information has
not been found, in and of itself, to constitute a prima facie contempt of
the House. To find someone guilty of contempt would require, as the
parliamentary secretary pointed out, proof that the person provided false
information with the intention of deliberately misleading the House.
I refer hon. members to a Speaker's ruling given on December 6, 1978, and
described on page 87 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice. In
finding that a prima facie contempt of the House existed, Mr. Speaker
Jerome ruled that a government official, by “deliberately misleading a
Minister, had impeded a Member in the performance of his duties and
consequently obstructed the House itself”. It is this element of
deliberately seeking to mislead the House and not the presentation of
information subject to differing interpretations that is key. In the case
before us today, I have found no indication that there is any basis for
alleging that such a contempt has taken place.
I thank the hon. member for Yorkton--Melville for his usual vigilance and
for bringing this matter to the attention of the Chair. However, I can
find no prima facie breach of privilege or a contempt of the House at this
time.
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